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Topic: In the groove (in legal trouble), What do you think about it?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
00:00 CST :: 5/12/2005

cj_iwakura
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Konami keeps releasing Contra and Metal Gear because they think there's a profitable market for it,and they're probably right.
They stopped making DDR because it stopped making money.
Believe me, with Konami, it's money first, fans last.


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00:13 CST :: 5/12/2005

WayneC02
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The complaint (it's not a suit yet) only states that (like cj said)they are infringing on the medium with which to provide the game to its fanbase. For the only current way to play ITG (the upgrade kits), arcade owners must replace the existing hardware, which infringes on Konami's patents. There's alot to this that we don't know, though. Would it hold up in court if the machines themselves were illegally imported to the U.S.? (every Extreme machine and furthermore, Japanese DDR machine is illegal in the U.S.) Nowhere in the instruction manual does it say "put this in a DDR cabinet", only to "remove existing hardware" (other side of the coin: it does obviously show DDR cabinets in a few pictures). So there's alot we can only speculate on until Roxor makes some comment.

Personally, I think Roxor covered their asses back before they even started on ITG. It would've been a bad move for them to let something like that slip by. Let's just wait it out and see what the Roxor guys have to say about it all.

And I'm keeping an eye on this thread, just in case. I don't want it turning into "ITG SUCKS", "DDR SUCKS", "ROXOR SUCKS", or "KONAMI SUCKS". Not saying it will, but I know how fast things get out of hand on those blasted internets.


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00:22 CST :: 5/12/2005

seen
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Very Wrong! Dance Dance Revolution makes A LOT of money for Konami. Look at almost every arcade center, you'll always see DDR. The home versions are extremely popular and big sellers. It's in the Platinum status which is a term used for big sellers. If you want proof go here http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/puzzle/ddrextreme/news_6117369.html and http://ps2.ign.com/articles/583/583964p1.html

Also to WayneCO2, no, the DDR machines released in the U.S. are perfectly legal. Konami of America has given Betson Enterprises (America's biggest, largest, and most well known arcade distributor) the right to sell DDR arcades and other Konami arcade products.


Edited by seen on 01:09 CST :: 5/12/2005

01:53 CST :: 5/12/2005

WayneC02
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No sir, that's not correct at all. DDR arcade machines make no money for Konami. Let me explain why (even though it doesn't matter anymore since Konami quit making machines a couple years back): Konami sells a machine to an arcade; Konami gets the money; END TRANSACTION. Konami doesn't get any % of the profit that arcade makes from the use of the machine, they only get money for the actual machine they sold. That's where their profit comes from, so they're not losing any money here, they're just not gaining any extra money they feel they're entitled to. Also keep in mind that we're talking about Konami of Japan, since Konami of America killed their U.S. arcade division.

DDR home versions are obviously making money, I wasn't doubting that at all. Speaking of which, I honestly believe that the imminent release of ITG for PS2 pushed Konami over the edge, bringing this about, because they realized they'll no longer hold a monopoly on home version dance games. Silly Konami, if you want to get fans back, you have to put out QUALITY, not quantity. (which is what I and many others believe ITG has done)

Yes, the DDR machines released in the U.S. are legal... as long as they're U.S. machines. Any machine that isn't a U.S. DDR mix in a U.S. machine is ILLEGAL in the U.S. Read the warning/intro screen on any of those machines: "This game not intended for sale or use outside of Japan" and it goes on to say that you can be prosecuted, blah blah, the usual legal stuff. It's not like that really matters because back when Konami sold the machines, you think they cared where the money was coming from? Hell no they didn't. So I see the illegality issue as a potential sticking point for Konami's case.

Also like I said somewhere earlier, Konami of America has nothing to say in this since they dropped their U.S. arcade division a while back and this complaint is only targeted towards the arcade version (KoA only really counts now in regards to home versions). Betson may have authorization from KoJ to sell parts to fix arcade machines but that'd be damn hypocritical to publically allow selling and distributing of the very machines in places where they're illegal in the first place.


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08:57 CST :: 5/12/2005

cj_iwakura
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Also, the production of arcade mixes came to a halt since their other Bemani ventures way outsell DDR in the country that originated it, which makes Konami seem even more childish for instigating this whole thing.
It really seems to me that they're picking on the little guys if the console thing is what set them off, because they could probably decide to target Andamiro again if that was their issue. But RoXoR are of course the easier target since they're using similar technology, so they become the ideal scapegoat.

I went to EB yesterday, and ITG's date is slated for next week. If this at all changes that, I'll be ticked.
I'd like to at least play the game before Konami release the hounds.  -_-


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09:58 CST :: 5/12/2005

seen
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Very good point gentlemen, well as you can see I LOVE DDR. I also have love for Pump It Up. But to ITG,  I'm mixed on that. Didn't they know Konami patented DDR's gameplay??? The reason I believe it took Konami a long while to file on their asses is because they were planning on what to do and stuff. Then when they were gonna release a home version, that just went WAY too far. So now Konami's doing on what I knew they were gonna do. DDR arcade machines does make a lot of money for Konami. I can't prove it, but I'm serious it does. Also Konami DID started the dance simulation formula. First of all, DDR (the first mix) was in a very earlier test phase in Japan, in early 1998. They released it in some arcade centers in Japan and it proved to be very spectacularly popular. Konami later officially released it in October 1998. Many people in Japan went to the arcades everyday to play the game. This was like when Mortal Kombat was released in America, it was a great success and many people started going to the arcade and etc. Later on a year later, Andamiro released PIU. Konami quickly saw it, and quickly took legal actions toward Andamiro. Then started this ridiculous "DDR vs PIU." I don't really like that. I Love both games. There is clearly no proof Andamiro started the Dance Simulation genre. If it was the first one, it should've been shown in arcade convention and stuff since it's gameplay was completely new. Also it was a small company back then, and they should've done that. Now it's a large, well known company due to PIU. But the PIU starting the Dance Simulation genre is mainly just started by hardcore Pump fans. But yeah I LOVE PUMP IT UP also. I just don't like that "which game pwns this or that." Also to cj iwakura, it will not be released next week. This is what Plaguefox from the ITG team says "John Tam of RedOctane will make an announcement when we have a specific day for the release. Until then, anything you may hear from retailers is speculation and is not official." What's also funny is that if you go to the ITG forums at Roxor there is no mention of this. Well I saw one thread dicussing about this situation. A few hours later it was deleted.

Edited by seen on 10:32 CST :: 5/12/2005

11:22 CST :: 5/12/2005

WayneC02
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I hate to repeat myself but DDR arcades makes zero money for Konami (of Japan, or America, since the arcade division is dead) anymore. They no longer make cabinets, so they no longer sell cabinets, and they no longer make money from DDR machines. The individual arcades make money from the machines but they don't give any of that to Konami, that'd be stupid. Konami DOES make alot of money from the home versions, but that's it.

It's also debatable who started what first in the KoJ vs AM case. The courts in Korea sided with AM, Japan's courts sided with Konami. No real surprise there, given they sided with their respective country's company.

And sorry chief, but you're wrong again. Here's why:
Quote ("Slackbot @ itgfreak.com's forums")
One thing to consider : you can't copyright a concept, only the expression of that concept.  Namco couldn't copyright the concept of a maze-chase game, but they could wim a case if another game was too similar to Pac-Man (as "KC Munchkin" was, according to the courts).  Konami can't copyright the concept of a dancing game involving arrows, music, and a stepping pad.  They can patent unique hardware, and trademark and copyright the game and its elements as appropriate, but the overall concept is not theirs to own.  If another game is different enough, and does not infringe upon its intellectual property, then Konami has no grounds for legal complaint.

Interesting take, no? This means Konami HAS NOT and CAN NOT copyright the concept of stepping on arrows to music (i.e. the "gameplay"). They can and have, however, copyright the hardware and cabinet. This is what the complaint is referring to, that ITG requires modification of their patented cabinet.

If this is right, why do you still think that Roxor "went way too far" releasing ITG on home consoles? You can't copyright the game's concept so Roxor is fine with home versions as I see it, because it doesn't require modification of Konami's intellectual property.

cj: ITG had a release date of May 10th on EBgames.com from shortly after it was announced until that day. I wouldn't really trust any dates they give anymore. GameStop also has it listed as May 16th but I'm not counting my chickens. I'm just waiting for an official date to be announced.


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11:37 CST :: 5/12/2005

chaosweaver
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wayne is right about the arcade thing, the only people that profit really from arcade sales are the owners of the arcades, (which is probably the reason konami of america killed its arcade division). and on the console note, one can't say that DDR holds the monopoly on that, either, seeing as how PIU has had a few PC versions, and as of a few days ago put out the exceed home version for the xbox. (speaking of which, anyone know where i can buy that?) frankly, konami is just trying to hold onto it's diminishing fanbase by burying its competitors in legal disputes.

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video killed the radio star, but for a while i was the suspect.

14:13 CST :: 5/12/2005

Turkeyslam
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I read about all this at DDRFreak... I spent all my double study hall today at school reading the thread. X_X

Konami's claim has a lot of ego masturbation going on, but all in all, they have very valid and factual points, and Roxor is in deep trouble.

I say Konami has every right to protect their intellectual property, and while some people say that they're just shitting on the fans as they do this, you have to realize that they're just protecting what's theirs. As a business they should have done this a while back. It's a shame though that it's coinciding with ITG2 and the ITG console launch (both of which are getting further away from the legal death water), but Konami seems to be doing this because they're finally seeing Roxor as a viable competitor, and it very well may be they have something up their sleeve. Someone at DDRFreak who seemed to be in the new kept emphasizing to wait for E3 for clarification on things, so I'm gonna listen. E3 isn't that far off anyway.

As shitty as it sounds, Roxor had it coming. While I'm all for more variety and while I definitely don't want ITG to end because of this, their approach simply wasn't a good idea. That whole backdoor loophole thing with illegal machines and modifying kits was a lawsuit waiting to happen. The only legal way they could have gotten this to work without problems is if they had that whole new ITG cabinet thing like they do for ITG2... with ITG1.

I suggest you all read Konami's complaint. It's pretty damn deep, and it explains what they want. Konami's actually being pretty damn nice about the situation, IMO. They could've done a cease-and-desist thing or worse. It seems now all they want is compensation for damages of infringed copyrights on their cabinet design.


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14:54 CST :: 5/12/2005

chaosweaver
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Quote
Konami's claim has a lot of ego masturbation going on, but all in all, they have very valid and factual points, and Roxor is in deep trouble.


"ego masturbation" ?  there's a term i've not heard i a few years.  i bow to you sir,  :bowdown:  for doing the research many of us are too lazy to do.


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video killed the radio star, but for a while i was the suspect.

47 replies since 03:54 CST :: 4/20/2005 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

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